Inayat Bunglawala
Inayat Bunglawala is an Advisor on Policy and Research at ENGAGE, an initiative designed to encourage British Muslims to interact more effectively in politics and the media in the UK. He is also a spokesperson at the Muslim Council of Britain.
Some religious communities are not reciprocating the tolerance and respect they insist on from others when it comes to gay rights, particularly in Muslim and some Christian communities. That seemed to be the bleak message at the heart of To Be Straight With You, which was performed at the O’Reilly Theatre in Dublin last week following a sell-out three-week run at the National Theatre in London.
I had been invited to Dublin for a public discussion on issues surrounding religious freedom and sexuality alongside the production’s director, Lloyd Newson, human rights campaigner Peter Tatchell, Dr Katherine Zappone and Father Michael Collins.
In Muslim communities the issue of homosexuality is very rarely discussed in a candid manner and is all too often wished away as if it is an affliction that involves other groups, not them. Not far from the surface, however, are reports of gay Muslim men being pressurised into rushed marriages by parents desperate to avoid any social stigma. The woman’s family is never told the truth about her husband’s sexuality, of course, with the result that another soul has to endure unhappiness due to the initial failure to face up to the issue. It is a highly dishonest and unethical approach.
Islamic scholars and imams should ideally be performing a much-needed pastoral role by helping in these situations and providing guidance. At the very least they should insist that any intimidation or discrimination against gay Muslims is unacceptable.
Newson’s show makes mention of Nelson Mandela’s experiences in 1950s South Africa when the teachings of the Dutch Reformed Church were dominant. In order to get around the country and spread his message of black emancipation and freedom, Mandela used to disguise himself as a chauffeur, pretending to take with him a white passenger who happened to be a colleague in the anti-apartheid movement. That white colleague also happened to be gay, and during those many journeys they had the opportunity to discuss many issues. Mandela came to the conclusion that South Africa could not properly be described as a free and liberated country until all its communities, including the gay community, were freed from persecution.
Just over two years ago, I wrote an article for Cif commending the Muslim Council of Britain (MCB) for publicly backing new sexual orientation regulations that had just come into effect as part of the Equality Act 2006. The Equality Act brought the goal of a fairer society closer by proscribing – for the first time – discrimination in the provision of goods and services on the grounds of religious belief or sexuality.
The 2006 act did not in any way compel believers to change any view they had about the practice of homosexuality being against the teachings of their religion. However, it did rightly insist that if someone wanted to provide goods and services to the public, then they should do so without discrimination on grounds of ethnic background, faith or sexual orientation.
The MCB, by supporting the act in its entirely, had taken a positive step forward and had inevitably attracted some criticism from within, which I noted at the time.
Would it not be another positive step if the MCB – as a broad-based umbrella organisation – were to include a gay Muslim support group as an affiliate? There does not appear to be anything in the MCB’s constitution that would seem to preclude such groups from joining and indeed the following clause from the declaration of intent section of the MCB constitution is particularly relevant:
“[The MCB] is a broad-based, representative organisation of Muslims in Britain, accommodating and reflecting the variety of social and cultural backgrounds and outlook of the community.”
At its best, Islamic civilisation was more than willing to learn from other surrounding countries and cultures and adopt the best aspects as its own. Actively working to ensure that people are able to live free of discrimination based on one’s ethnicity, gender, religion or sexual orientation is a worthy goal and should be viewed as an Islamic goal.
This article was first published at The Guardian.
tsk…tsk…tsk…sigh!
Mark my words, this thread will end up as another Christian-bashing one.
I would think it should end up one that simply addresses and “bashes” the intolerance of those groups that demand we “respect their right to free thought and action” but then in turn denounce and denigrate the rights of others, regardless of gender, or sexuality.
Well, what can be done? Religious dogma will always trump common sense. Who here is going to argue with a muslim cleric that homosexuality and sexual choice is none of their business and it should be up to the individual who he/she wants to be with?
If you are a gay, just be a gay.. it is your hormones structure, religion cant blame you.
“1) gemami”
Seriously, get a life. Why are you trying to victimize Christianity when no one is even doing that? Do you happen to be some sort of prophet who foresees the future? If not, your silence is greatly appreciated.
Oh and you’re probably going to justify your statement by saying that most comments in other articles have ended up being hostile to the Christian religion. That would be sweeping generalisation, no? Just because it happened in the other articles, does not mean that the phenomena will replicate itself here.
Do consider my advice. Get a life. Peace.
There is a lot of misunderstanding being created around issues like this. People tend to fall for human interpretations and conjectures. To give an analogy, if you want to learn how to operate a particular device you need to read the manual. However what happens frequently with regards to Islam is that people start viewing Islam from the glasses of the current practices of those who are called Muslims. It is like judging the performance of Ferrari while a novice driver is driving the machine.
I believe that the best approach is to go back to original sources of this religion. These sources in order of importance are Quran (the word of God) and Sunnah (the practices and sayings of Prophet Muhammad). If there are no specific rules found in these sources scholars of these sources can suggest their interpretation on the given matter. However in Islam one is judged by his/her intention. Furthermore it is strongly advised to Muslims not to judge others, especially in the matters of morality.
Having said that, Islam is a religion espousing a set of believes and prescribing a way of life. Like any ideology, religion, or faith, no one is coersed into accepting it. This is evident from the following verses of Quran:
2:256 There is no compulsion in religion, for the right way is clearly from the wrong way. Whoever therefore rejects the forces of evil and believes in God, he has taken hold of a support most unfailing, which shall never give way, for God is All Hearing and Knowing.
16:82 But if they turn away from you, (O Prophet remember that) your only duty is a clear delivery of the Message (entrusted to you).
However like any contractual arrangement if parties willing bind themselves to an agreement they are supposed to adhere to that and there is consequence anyone breaches the contract. Similarly if someone makes a conscious decision to accept Islam, there are no waivers and exceptions. It is like entering into a binding contract. If someone has accepted Islam, he/she has submitted himself to the commandments of the religion. This rule is evident from the following verse:
O believers enter into Islam completely and do not follow the footsteps of Shaitan, surely he is your clear-cut enemy. If you falter after receiving the clear-cut message, then keep in mind that Allah is Mighty, Wise.
(Surah Al-Baqara, Ayah 208-210)
Now it is evident from the above verses that anyone is at the liberty to accept or refuse to accept Islam and its teachings. However once someone enters into Islam he/she is bound by the teachings and rules of the religion. Now lets see what scriptures say about homosexuality:
SURA VII: 78-84 [On Lot at Sodom]
Then the earthquake took them, and in the morning they lay prone in their dwellings; and he turned away from them and said, ‘O my people! I did preach to you the message of my Lord, and I gave you good advice; but ye love not sincere advisers.’ And Lot, when he said to his people, ‘Do ye approach an abomination which no one in all the world ever anticipated you in? verily, ye approach men with lust rather than women- nay, ye are a people who exceed.’ But his people’s answer only was to say, ‘Turn them out of your village, verily, they are a people who pretend to purity.’ But we saved him and his people, except his wife, who was of those who lingered; and we rained down upon them a rain;- see then how was the end of the sinners!
From the above verses it is clear that participating in those sexual acts which are typically called homosexuality are prohibited in Islam.
Now lets come to the issues raised in the above article.
Does Islam coerce homosexuals into unnatural acts while they are predisposed towards a particular sexual orientation? Well my simple counter question is: Is it possible for the society to accept pedophile if they claim towards this sexual orientation on the basis that this is their way or showing affection towards children. Or to become more daring is it possible for the society to legalize incest and allow wedlock between sister and brother or between the father and the daughter or between the mother and son.
My simple question is why the post modern society has the pretensions to be liberal and glamorizes one predisposition while keep another act a taboo. Why is it that a makeup artist or a fashion designer is stereotyped by the media to have a given sexual orientation while witch hunt goes on on the airports for those who have downloaded the photos of underage sex!
There we go, TOC is at it again…sign! Has TOC become more of “a community of Singapore gays and lesbians”?
Since the AWARE incident, TOC had turned from being an alternative voice for Singaporeans, to a one voice for LGBTs now.
Sad, indeed very very sad!
dear mavis, TOC is for anti-discrimination of gays and lesbians. Good job TOC.
Just to add another point to the above comment, in society where born Muslims constitute majority or communities where Muslim comprise the membership, issues of homosexuality and heterosexuality do become part of the social discourse. Very few people outside the region know that homosexuality is a part of popular underground culture in the Pashtun areas of Pakistan and Afghanistan. Actually several brothels exist in these areas where customers hire the services of underage boys to satisfy their sexual needs. Obviously these boys are coerced into selling their bodies. As evident from the following report at page 16.
http://www.omct.org/pdf/cc/pakistan_report_09_2003_EN.pdf
Similarly eunuchs are common sight on the roads in South Asia where they can be spotted begging on traffic signals. According to some accounts they are kidnapped at young age and subjected to this behavior.
http://www.ars-rhetorica.net/Queen/Volume11/Articles/IntroDennis.html
So how the society is supposed to view homosexuality and the orientation of those who are participating in the above acts. Who is the victim and who is the perpetrator?
dear verysad
you’re right, TOC is for anti-discrimination of gays and lesbians, and they do it through discriminating all others (whether individuals or religions) who do not agree with them or have different perspectives from theirs!
Fahim – please don’t conflate things – homosexuality isn’t pedophilia, it isn’t incest, it isn’t prostitution, it isn’t genital mutilation (if i may classify the eunuch story in that way). And I’m surprised that this didn’t come up, but I’ll say it anyway – it isn’t bestiality either.
Ok, now, state your concerns about homosexuality, keeping in mind what it isn’t.
trythelete – If you were to ask me my concerns about homosexuality, they can look very parochial. Why should I judge someone when I do not want to be judged. The reason I say that my feelings might be biased towards it is because I feel that I became a victim of that once during my young age and it left a glaring mark on my memory. Just the recollection of me being forced into such act is simply revolting. One has to experience it to understand how does it feel like when you are subjected to it against your will. Well the guy may a compulsive pedophile but I can not stop thinking of a possibility that the fellow was looking for something exotic at that time. You can bet on it that if I were to catch anyone touching my sons with that intention my reaction will be very harsh! I might not be rational to say that but this is how I feel it. So the point is that anyone has the right to do whatever he or she wants but please do not force others into your mindset or lifestyle as unwilling partner by glamorizing them as it is being done these days.
However one thing I am very clear about is trying to allow an act which is already been prohibited in a given religion. My concern is that why people are trying to fit square peg in the round hole. If something is prohibited by the primary sources of religion it is not allowed. Just by saying it is okay to be Gay Muslim, one is implying that it is okay to commit adultery in Islam.
Please do not deface the religion. I respect your right to freedom and free will, please do not superimpose your interpretation into my beliefs when my religion has given clear instructions what is allowed and what is not. You are welcome to reject it but please do not tell me how I should practice it.
Dear People,
How to expect Muslims to tolerate gays ? Islam UN-EQUIVOCALLY condemns homosexuality ! The Quran itself condemns homosexuality – along with the Hadith. Simply put – Islam CANNOT be reconciled with homosexuality.
I wonder if Alfian Saat had anything to do with this ? The Islam Liberal crowd is really asking for trouble if they raise this issue.
Regards
Dr Syed Alwi
Hi WD Tan,
Thanks – good advice.
I think we have to respect each religion for its values and beliefs whether or not we agree with them. Religions can be exclusive, and should not be expected to compromise long established principles to include others who do not believe or comply with them. It is your right to be homosexual, yes, but it is also the right of followers of a particular faith to not accept you as a member of that faith, if it does not condone homosexuality. Exercise your right to be of whatever sexual orientation you choose, but don’t expect all faiths to accommodate to your decision. Religion is ultimately a matter of personal choice, even if there are familial/societal pressures on one to subscribe to the faith and its practices, at some point everyone has to make a decision for him or herself. Making such decisions can be tough, but you ultimately have to make a choice according to what is most important to you. If you allow decisions to be made for you, live with the consequences. Either way its tough, but that’s life isn’t it?
Fahim – again, don’t lump all sorts of issues together. Homosexuality isn’t molest. It isn’t rape.
What you choose to do with your religion is up to you and the rest of the followers of that religion, up to a point anyway. I wanted to find out if there’s anything, other than religious conviction, that compels you to speak out against homosexuality. And it bears repeating that homosexuality isn’t the same thing as molest, rape, pedophilia, incest, bestiality, prostitution or genital mutilation.
Dear People – especially tryathlete,
Look – what your thoughts and views on homosexuality are – does not matter one bit to Muslims. The Muslim faith is based on the Quran and Hadith. And the vast majority of Muslims in the Muslim world – agree without hesitation that both the Quran and the Hadith condemns homosexuality.
What can you do to change this ? Your views do not carry any weight in the Muslim world. Whether you like it or not – Islam does NOT accept or condone or tolerate – homosexuality. Period.
You don’t like it ? Well you are free to accept another religion besides Islam. Its a free world. No one stops you from making your own choices.
Regards
Dr Syed Alwi
tryathlete – well as I said earlier that I do not want to judge others. May be because I do not know enough and do not care to know.
By the way thanks to let us know that
“homosexuality isn’t the same thing as molest, rape, pedophilia, incest, bestiality, prostitution or genital mutilation.”
Would you care to elaborate your views “what homosexuality is?”
with regards to the my observance of my religion at personal level, what is the limit you propose to impose?
Hi Everyone,
Feel free to discuss, but please refrain from quoting any Holy Text.
Best regards
Donaldson Tan
Deputy Editor
Donaldson,
But isn’t because of “holy texts” that’s why Christians and Muslims are against homosexuality?
Your title is prodding Muslims to rethink homo exuality, and you bar them from quoting from the very source why they are against it? So if they can’t quote their text, what can they quote?
It is like you are armed with a knife (you brought in religion), yet you disarm them (notice that at the same time you do not want them talk religion!)
Let’s see some fair play.
In any case, I have spoken against homo issues in this site before, WITHOUT quoting scriptures. I was moderated.
Talking about not quoting holy texts.
What the heck! Moderation again????
Dear Donaldson,
Why can’t we quote from a Holy Text – especially since the topic of discussion revolves around religious belief ?
Its like telling people to talk about Mechanics but one is not free to use Newton’s Laws !
If you want a free and fair discussion like you TOC people claim to desire – then you must also accept the quotes from Holy Texts when you discuss religious issues.
Regards
Dr Syed Alwi
Dr Syed,
On that point, I agree with you.
Hi Dr Syed Alwi #21,
I am not stopping you from paraphrasing your Holy Text. If you quote the Quaran directly, there will inevitably be some people who will bash the Quaran. Any Muslim, conservative or not, will find that offensive.
Fahim – Homosexuality is sexual/romantic attraction among members of the same sex, I suppose. The specific definition might vary between different groups.
The reason I pointed out what it’s not, is because you say you’re against homosexuality, and then you bring up all sorts of examples that are offensive – but those examples have more to do with that list of things that homosexuality isn’t.
Regarding this question:
> with regards to the my observance of my religion at personal level, what is the limit you propose to impose?
I suppose this question is about my earlier post:
>>What you choose to do with your religion is up to you and the rest of the followers of that religion, up to a point anyway.
If this is the sentence you are responding to, I’m not suggesting anything out of the ordinary, just the usual ‘respect each other’s space’ that most people largely are ok with. Just to be clear, I’m not denigrating or defacing your religion (at least not in this discussion), I was objecting to the conflation of homosexuality with all those other things.
#24 tryathlete:
Really admire your patience with explaining! Especially the succinct “homosexuality is not _, _, and _.”
Fahim:
What do you feel of pedophilia, incest, prostitution, rape, genital mutilation in a heterosexual context? Would you condone it simply because it is heterosexual? If you have some ounce of decency I would suppose not; in that case why are those crimes any more heinous because they’re between two people of the same gender?
(I think that was tryathlete’s point.)
I can appreciate the argument that Islam does not condone homosexuality, therefore there’s no such thing as a Gay Muslim. But I thought religion is supposed to be personal – if someone is gay and decides to be a Muslim, that’s between him and God right? – Why do some people speak as if they *own* Islam and they decide who is or isn’t a Muslim?
In the same vein, people are quick to jump at a Gay Muslim to tell him: “No, you can’t be a Muslim when you are gay”, but when it comes to a person who commits terrorism in the name of Islam, no one seems to want to tell him that: “No, Islam does not condone terrorism, therefore you are not a Muslim when you are a terrorist!”
This is a really really touchy issue. The religion condemns homosexuality. Period. I don’t think that there is any doubt about that (based on what has been said so far). It is something that I doubt can be changed. It’s not like you can go around changing the holy text just like that after all (which would be the only way to actually let gay muslims gain acceptance from their religion)
26) Lop
But you have to consider the nature of the religion itself. If the religion explicitly condemns homosexuality… then what next? Actually what you said is quite interesting. It makes me wonder…what is religion exactly? Religion is quite interesting isn’t it? Because there are a lot of people who practise selective religion. They select the parts they want to follow and cast out the rest.
@Lop
Perhaps we can distinguish between faith and religion. Faith, I would consider a personal relationship with God, which does not necessarily stand according to an established set of rules and values. Religion tends to be more of an institution, that involves a community and a set of laws/norms that are followed. There are religious leaders whom are believed to be given a holy mandate to speak on God with authority, and the religious community tends to try and ‘protect’ the parameters set by them. Therefore they tend to be more harsh about societal behaviour. Given that religion involves a group of humans, there is a natural tendency to politicise, and for certain individuals who become self righteous about their faith. Being human, they can also be quite contradictory about this.
I think that there are many Muslims who would condemn terrorism in the name of Islam, especially when Islam is just given as a convenient excuse for heinous crimes. You’re taking a pretty radical view and using it to fit a general argument. It seems rather sweeping.
#28 tookie
Thanks for distinguishing between faith and religion. So it seems there’s nothing ‘divine’ or ‘spiritual’ about religion, it’s just ugly human politics in a nicer packaging.
As for my ‘radical view’, I’d like to illustrate it with the recent case of Noordin Top and his demise. Apparently he was still given a Muslim burial and here’s what his brother-in-law said in his funeral:
“We do not support what he had done but he was good to our family and a good Muslim.”
Despite all the heinous crimes, despite Islam does not condone terrorism, he was still a ‘Good Muslim’.
Would we likely to hear:
Despite him being gay, despite Islam does not condone homosexuality, he was still a ‘Good Muslim’.
Why waste time? You are like this, they are like that! Full Stop! End of Discussion!
You could never ever reason with such unreasonable people! Their holy book stated like that – end of reasoning, end of logic.
hello all, just sharing what i think…
every country/organization/religion has rules.. if you are singaporean… you go across the causeway without 3/4 tank, you might get fined… if u bring in cigarette from malaysia, you get fined… these are rules… u can still do it, but better dont get caught… if u do… u know what u gonna get..
some people might think some of these rules (eg.. 3/4 tank) are unfair… cigarettes need to be taxed by our government before it becomes legal… if not, it is illegal.. but will they be let off??
so in conclusion… if only because of money, some rules can be created… we should also respect each religions’ rules… i am sure, these rules by these religions are not for money or simple stuff.. its all there for a lot of good reasons i believe…
Morvious,
The religion condemns homosexuality. Period//
Wow that’s a bit generalization, dont you think?
Would it be more accurate to say, the more widespread religion condemns homosexuality? (even this i am not entirely convinced)
When one takes on religion, who’s to say which faith is considered religion?
Does the aborigine in Australia’s belief not called religion? or some society in Africa?
#17
“Look – what your thoughts and views on homosexuality are – does not matter one bit to Muslims.”
Yawn…zzzz. Dun flatter yourself as usual. What makes you think your views or those of your “faith” matters to anyone else then-period? Guess that’s why violence is always the constant chosen mode by your fellow “believers” to force the world to listen to BS in the name of jihad.
It’s also so easy to see the root of your errors through the high handed manner of your posting. Total disregard for differing views. Amazing, just using what one so called book says, take it or leave it-tough, and that’s it?
Geez…the world is shivering. Spare us..zzz. Same ole same ole illogic flushing down the sewage. Nothing new.
Quote :
“Does Islam coerce homosexuals into unnatural acts while they are predisposed towards a particular sexual orientation? Well my simple counter question is: Is it possible for the society to accept pedophile if they claim towards this sexual orientation on the basis that this is their way or showing affection towards children. Or to become more daring is it possible for the society to legalize incest and allow wedlock between sister and brother or between the father and the daughter or between the mother and son.
My simple question is why the post modern society has the pretensions to be liberal and glamorizes one predisposition while keep another act a taboo. Why is it that a makeup artist or a fashion designer is stereotyped by the media to have a given sexual orientation while witch hunt goes on on the airports for those who have downloaded the photos of underage sex!”
Pedophilia should not be likened to homosexuality at all. The reason why pedophilia is condemned in virtually every place in the world is because children are deemed to be unable to make informed and responsible decisions. Homosexual acts, on the other hand, is defined as consensual sexual acts between two ADULTS (who can make their own choices) of the same gender. No consent issues here.
I also agree with tryathlete that you are lumping these issues together, making it hard to isolate ‘homosexuality’ in itself for discussion.
@Lop
Thanks for bringing this issue to this discussion. According to my understanding there are certain acts in Islam which are pardonable and there are certain acts which can not be pardoned. Similarly in Islam one has obligations towards God and those towards other members of the community.
Most of the acts related to personal morality and one’s relationship to God, such as performing rituals come under the domain of one’s obligation to God. It is a matter between the individual and his God. There are clear injunctions related to personal morality and one’s obligation towards God. These injunctions can not be changed. Therefore acts such as homosexuality, having sexual relations outside the wedlock, intoxication are considered sins. However other members of the faith can not pass the judgment whether those who commit these acts fall out of the bound of religion. So if someone commits these acts and dies at a later stage others can not pass judgment whether he/she died as a non-believer. It is a matter between him and his God. His God may or may not forgive him. Having said that these acts are still considered sins. So there is no possibility of them being allowed at any moment in time. Therefore there is no possibility of having a Gay Muslim as there is no possibility of having a Fornicator Muslim or Muslim wine drinker the way one can have Muslim athlete or Muslim doctor or Chinese Muslim. Therefore we can not say that he was a heavy drinker but he was a Good Muslim. Rather we say that it was matter between him and his God without condoning the act as that act itself is considered a sin.
On the other hand in Islam one has obligations towards other members of society. So if someone steels or harm the other person or usurp other person’s property or due right. It is only the victim against who such act is committed has the right to forgive or not. Here the affected party has the right to pass judgment.
Acts related to committing harm on others and carrying out coercion on others come under that domain. Similarly acts of using force are also covered by this area. In Islamic scriptures there are very clear guidelines on what is allowed and what is prohibited. Here are some of the verses giving guidelines on what is allowed and what is not:
Fight in the cause of Allah those who fight you, but do not transgress limits; for Allah loveth not transgressors. – Quran 2:190
If any one slew a person – unless it be for murder or for spreading mischief in the land – it would be as if he slew the whole people. – Quran 5:32
The Prophet used to instruct his followers during battles and tell them not to be embittered or inclined to commit treachery. He asked them to spare non-combatants, particularly children and hermits.
Caliph Abu Bakr (Companion of Prophet Mohammed and first ruler of Islam after the dead of Prophet Mohammed) gave the following instructions to the commander who led the campaign to Syria:
“Do not betray, be treacherous or vindictive. Do not mutilate. Do not kill children, the aged or women. Do not cut or burn palm trees or fruit trees. Do not slay a sheep, a cow, or camel except for your food. And you will come across people who stay in hermitages for worship; leave them alone to what they devote themselves to.”
Based on the above verses and traditions it is quite evident that acts committed against innocent and unarmed civilians in the name of Islam are in fact not just not allowed they are considered unpardonable crime.
Therefore anyone who commits these acts in the name of Islam is at best ignorant of the actual commandments or is among those who transgress.
It is quite evident from the above sources that the ideology of likes of Osama Bin Laden and Nordin Top actually belong to wrong interpretation of Islam. Furthermore such crimes commited in the religion have nothing to do with the original teachings of Islam.
@ dude # 34.
Re: issue of lumping different things together. May I ask to be educated why homosexuality should be allowed while incest should remain prohibited if that is between consenting adults!
I do not endeavor to force anything down anyone’s throat. What I am simply saying is that based on my readings of original sources I do not find any reason to believe that the religion I practice allows its followers to practice homosexuality. It does not by any means force others who prefer not to accept being a part of this community towards any particular behavior.
I will be grateful if anyone who has different reading of Islam in terms of permissibility of such acts and attitude produce any source which can substantiate his/her argument.
Fahim on October 7th, 2009 2.05 am:
I know that a couple of other posters have already tried to correct your flawed definition of “homosexuality”, but as a gay man myself, I would like you to have it from right from the horse’s mouth.
Homosexuality as we use the word refers to:
1. consensual sexual/emotional relationships;
2. between two adults; and,
3. of the same sex.
The offensiveness of your original misinterpretation should be seen in the light of the absence of the most important criteria, consent, that we use when distinguishing homosexuality from other consensual or non-consensual relationships involving sex.
However, I would like to pursue other points that you have raised:
1. Re: “What I am simply saying is that based on my readings of original sources I do not find any reason to believe that the religion I practice allows its followers to practice homosexuality.”
Well, from all accounts, you are right: Islam does have an injunction – carried over from Christianity and Judaism before that – against homosexuality. But an injunction against homosexuality is one thing; any penalty imposed by man against homosexuals is another. Does the existence of an injunction justify penalties imposed by man such as death by any number of methods, public caning, or even jail?
I also want to ask you this: What if scientific evidence establishes conclusively that homosexuality as a natural occurence, which would then contradict the assumption in your religion that it is a choice? Would a) Islam; and/or, b) Muslims be open to those scientific findings and reverse its/their stand on homosexuality?
2. Re: ” It does not by any means force others who prefer not to accept being a part of this community towards any particular behavior.”
Here you are talking about converts to Islam. But I would like to ask you about Muslims who were born Muslims instead. Should they be forced to accept this aspect of Islam if they don’t agree with it?
Re: ” It does not by any means force others who prefer not to accept being a part of this community towards any particular behavior.”
I am not a Muslim but I do have Muslim friends who are gay. I am told that this verse from the Quran is considered the “equality clause” in Islam – Quran (49:13) – but it has so far only been interpreted as justification against racism and sexism. My own googling has already come with several English language versions that can be interpreted very differently because of the wording. Please refer to the top of the page to this link:
http://www.answering-islam.org/Quran/Versions/049.013.html
Additionally, I have come across yet another wording of the same verse from an offline source: “O Mankind, I have created you from a single *SOUL* male and female…”
I hope this to be a starting point for discussion.
I may be Christian, I may be Hindu, I may be Muslim, I may be Buddhist, I may be Taoist, I may be Jain, I may be Baha’i, I may be Jewish, I may be Sikh or I may be Zoroastrian and I have my books to match but at the end of the day, I actually don’t give two hoots about anybody’s religious books especially if it has no relevance or application to my life.
Think about it, all the religious books in one way or the other will contradict or conflict with some other book. Who is really to say who is right or who is wrong?
If you think your book is right and supreme to your own life, so be it.
Enjoy your book, live your life to the best of that book’s expectations and intents but please leave the rest who do not give two hoots about your book alone. We really don’t care.
It is when the so called supremacy of your book (of whichever God or gods) is bandied about that people get really annoyed. That is when everyone else’s ‘supremacy’ complex get stirred up and than we have all sorts of bashings (intended or otherwise) happening. .
So, do keep your Bible, Vedas, Quran, the Pitakas, Tao Te Ching, Kalpa Sutra, Kitab-i-Aqdas, Torah, Sri Guru Granth Sahib or Zend Avesta as sacred as you want, but keep it sacred to yourself and adhere as best as you can to it in your private life.
benedict
fahim,
Incest is condemned because of biological reasons. There has been strong evidence that suggests children produced from an incestuous relationship are more likely to have birth defects. So once again, this is not so much an issue of consent.
“So, do keep your Bible, Vedas, Quran, the Pitakas, Tao Te Ching, Kalpa Sutra, Kitab-i-Aqdas, Torah, Sri Guru Granth Sahib or Zend Avesta as sacred as you want, but keep it sacred to yourself and adhere as best as you can to it in your private life.”
How about keeping gay ideology to yourself and try not to spread it to others? Let’s see some consistency.
“How about keeping gay ideology to yourself and try not to spread it to others? Let’s see some consistency.”
How about keeping IDIOCY to yourself and try not to spread it to others? Let’s see some consistency.
I am all for the same treatments for everybody,regardless of who you are.The late
prime of Canada Mr.P.Trudeau once said,I quote,”The government should not have any business in the nation’s bedrooms”.I totally agreed.So,keep your sexual
preference to yourselves and in your own domain and do not show off in the public.
this is ridiculous…
MUSLIMs want ot be respected to their pious believes 100%..
they already have many perks where the other religion cannot even be near or on par…
try parkin alon queenstreet on a double yellowlines on the 1st/15th in kuanyin temple..see how many parkin summons you will get…
their organs cannot be harvested @ all
they can have 4 wives if they chosse to..
now it want itself to be openminded and be reconigned as a gay community as well?
what would ALLAH says?
when MUSLIMs women were stoned/whipped just for wearin a miniskirts or holdin hands in public with their boyfriends?
~zhee~
preston loon on October 7th, 2009 10.05 am:
Re: ”The government should not have any business in the nation’s bedrooms”.I totally agreed.So,keep your sexual preference to yourselves and in your own domain and do not show off in the public.”
I agree. So long as heterosexuals abide by that same rule first.
Robox:
Re: ”The government should not have any business in the nation’s bedrooms”.I totally agreed.So,keep your sexual preference to yourselves and in your own domain and do not show off in the public.”
I agree. So long as heterosexuals abide by that same rule first.
==================
Where have heteros interfered the lives of homos if they have their fling in private?
Dr Syed Alwi on October 6th, 2009 5.24 pm:
Re: “Look – what your thoughts and views on homosexuality are – does not matter one bit to Muslims.”
Which Muslims? Even those who are gay?
Dear Robox,
A Muslim who is gay – lives a lifestyle that is condemned by Islam. Period. You may not like what Organized Religion has to say about homosexuality – but thats your business. You cannot expect Muslims the world over – to “modify” what they consider to be the Word of God – just to accomodate your sexual preferences.
No matter how you view homosexuality – Islam condemns it. You simply cannot get the Muslim world to change what is in the Quran.
If Muslim gays cannot accept this – well – they might want to consider being a free thinker or an atheist or an agnostic. But what they cannot expect is a modification of Islam to satisfy their sexual preferences. Period.
Regards
Dr Syed Alwi
Dr Syed Alwi,
are you aware that this article quoted by TOC expressing the need for tolerance, acceptance and respect towards gay Muslims was actually written by a Muslim and a spokesperson at the Muslim Council of Britain?
It seems not all Muslims share the same view as you in condemning homosexuality.
Re: #36
Thanks for correcting my “flawed understanding of homosexuality”. Well we do have consensual emotional relationship between two adults of same gender but without the involvement of sex and it can be in different forms, it can be one’s feelings towards his/her teacher, mentor, student, elder, friend, employer, employee, neighbor or comrade.
So if you go to Little India and find two Bangladeshis or Indians holding hands, do not assume that they have fallen for each other out of their lust for the other.
It is quite common in traditional societies that friends are committed to each other and can sacrifice anything for their friends without the lust for sex with the other person. Some friends are closer to each other than their own siblings and no one in the society has objected to that. Rather it is considered noble. Do you find this idea alien at least I don’t?
Now again I want to ask why a particular sexual predisposition such as homosexuality should be allowed while other consensual sexual relationships such as between siblings and close family members should remain prohibited. The point I am making is that where can we draw the line as to what is permissible what is taboo.
Look, from the secular perspective I do not have anything personal against homosexuals or any other sexual predisposition due to the very fact that it does not affect my life. However what really makes me flip is the fact that some people start changing the very basics of personal ethics and morality being espoused by Islam to fit their needs and lifestyle and called it according to the teachings of Islam. They are free to do whatever they want or like but they can not start claiming that in the name of Islam. Isn’t it what we do when we condemn terrorists when they commit these acts in the name of Islam. They have thousand justifications for carrying out those acts but they are unable to justify these acts they are clearly prohibited in Islam.
Now lets take the issue of the behavior and actions of born Muslims versus those who reverted to Islam. Look, based on my understanding of Islam, an individual is held responsible for his acts only after he/she reaches the stage of adulthood and it is quite evident from various verses that an individual is free to make a personal choice to accept or reject Islam as there is no coersion is religion. It just goes against the very logic of freewill. However having once accepted it he/she has bound by its injunctions. Furthermore as I have mentioned in the earlier post, based on my understanding of Islamic teachings, it is considered a sin but not something which throws a person outside the bounds of Islam. It is like getting intoxicated or having sex outside the wedlock. The others have no right to judge a person to be pious or otherwise but the act itself is a sin. So there are Muslims who drink, have sex outside the wedlock and/or do not offer obligatory prayers. So a person who commits homosexuality is committing a sin but as long as he/she profess Islam no one has the right to proclaim that person to be outside the bound of Islam. The act he/she is commiting his between his/her and the God and it is up to his/her God to forgive or punish.
With regards to the punishment in the world carried out others in the society, look we are living in a multicultural and multireligious society, therefore the issue of carrying out punishment does not arise in this context.
With reference to your point of equality clause as mentioned in the verse (Quran 49:13) get your facts right my friend! From where did you get the idea that two equals one? Here is the exact wordings of the verse and those which follow it:
(Quran 49:13)
O mankind! We created you from a single (pair) of a male and a female, and made you into nations and tribes, that ye may know each other (not that ye may despise each other). Verily the most honored of you in the sight of Allah is (he who is) the most righteous of you. And Allah has full knowledge and is well acquainted (with all things).
(The above verse is taken from the interpretation by Abdullah Yusuf Ali as available on the website http://www.theholyquran.org)
Just to highlight the fact that original Quran as it was revealed is in Arabic language and there are several interpretation of original scripture in different languages and they at best are interpretations.
Now look at the wordings in the verse, it is transliterated as “Anna Khalaqnakum Min Zakarinw Wa Unsa” Let me try to translate based on my limited understanding of the language: “Anna Khalaqnakum”-we have created you; “Min” -from; “Zakarinw Wa Unsa” – a male and a female.
Therefore I do not know where this word single “SOUL” come from? Can you let me know which offline version did you consult?
By the way preceding verses actually give answer to your questions of others judging someone:
(Quran 49:11-12)
O ye who believe! Let not some men among you laugh at others: it may be that the (latter) are better than the (former): nor let some women laugh at others: it may be that the (latter are better than the (former): nor defame nor be sarcastic to each other, nor call each other by (offensive) nicknames: Ill-seeming is a name connoting wickedness, (to be used of one) after he has believed: and those who do not desist are (indeed) doing wrong.
O ye who believe! Avoid suspicion as much (as possible): for suspicion in some cases is a sin: and spy not on each other, nor speak ill of each other behind their backs. Would any of you like to eat the flesh of his dead brother? Nay, ye would abhor it…But fear Allah, for Allah is Oft- Returning, Most Merciful.
With reference to the question that “What if scientific evidence establishes conclusively that homosexuality as a natural occurence, which would then contradict the assumption in your religion that it is a choice? Would a) Islam; and/or, b) Muslims be open to those scientific findings and reverse its/their stand on homosexuality?
I will just say that as I understand it is goes against the natural principle of procreation and as everything else, sexual desire is a blessing given to humans as a trust from God, just like wealth, power and life they are supposed to use it according to what is made permissible and refrain from what is made prohibited. Therefore just like taking one’s life is prohibited in Islam as it is trust from God using sexual desires in the ways which are prohibited are like defying the commandments of God.
By the way you are welcome to consult any source or website to research Islam including those which are adversorial towards Islam such as http://www.answering-islam.org However if you are sincere in understanding what is actually being said about issues such as homosexuality my humble request will be read the original sources the most important of them being Quran.
However I feel that this discussion is degenerating into rhetoric against religion in general and Islam in particular. If the participants want to engage in serious discussion to understand the views of the other side, they should actually stick to the topic instead of making it a shouting match.
Just look at the comments:
#38
“Think about it, all the religious books in one way or the other will contradict or conflict with some other book. Who is really to say who is right or who is wrong?
If you think your book is right and supreme to your own life, so be it.
Enjoy your book, live your life to the best of that book’s expectations and intents but please leave the rest who do not give two hoots about your book alone. We really don’t care. ”
If you have already concluded that all the revealed books and scripture are wrong and contradictory and you already don’t care, why are still coming to this discussion board and expected to be convinced that your lifestyle is or not in conformity with a particular book or scripture.
#40
“How about keeping IDIOCY to yourself and try not to spread it to others? Let’s see some consistency. ”
#42
“this is ridiculous…
MUSLIMs want ot be respected to their pious believes 100%..
they already have many perks where the other religion cannot even be near or on par…
try parkin alon queenstreet on a double yellowlines on the 1st/15th in kuanyin temple..see how many parkin summons you will get…
their organs cannot be harvested @ all
they can have 4 wives if they chosse to..
now it want itself to be openminded and be reconigned as a gay community as well?
what would ALLAH says?
when MUSLIMs women were stoned/whipped just for wearin a miniskirts or holdin hands in public with their boyfriends?”
That is my favorite one!
Can we have a discussion where there are serious arguments exchanged and no name calling please!